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Jacob
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redeeming himself....INTO A FLURRY OF BLADES!!!
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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You forget the poison and fire. Probably two kinds of poison. Maybe two kinds of fire, depending on just how many tricks John can pull.
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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I was looking through the Crane book and MY GOD. People who take Kakita as an Ancestor for 15 points can choose to reroll ANY failed roll up to their void times PER DAY and when they reroll they sub their Iajutsu in for what ever skill they were using along with the normal stat they used.

They also basically are a magnet for Matsu anger and really can never get along with a lion who knows who their ancestor is but damn.

Fail a contested roll, reroll! now I'm better at it!

I'm curious tho Jacob this is sort of a GM question. How do Courtiers and Artisans interact in the world as PCs, I mean obviously they can trade favors and make it easier for the rest of the party, and I know that ALOT goes on in rokugani court, but how much could a courtier actually change how things would work out. It strikes me as something that would be very hard to play in a way which was both entertaining and useful.

The skills of a courtier are always useful but I mean an actual courtier character.

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Jacob
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that's why ancestors are imbalanced =/.

Courtiers and Artisans interact just like everyone else the answers to alot of your questions are in your post. At the same time I think you're way oversimplifying the class.

Have you looked at some of their school techniques? Alex for example pretty much auto-knows anything historical that comes up in game as well as getting free raises on other skills for each one of his lore skills.

The Bayushi schook means you get a ridiculous number of free raises in any social situation against anyone who has disadvantages that you know about, anytime they have a contested social roll that they win, they get a free raise on the next one against that person, can know what their traits are, lie to them if they use abilities to find your traits, and if they can't give you new information, then they can't re-roll 10's against you in social skills for the rest of the day, you add your air ring to social rolls, your glory rank when you gossip is increased by your school rank, you choose which dice your blackmailed characters keep against you in social rolls, give people certain disadvantages and no points for them, ect. ect. ect. That's crippling. Even outside of court. You would basically be unable to function in Rokugani society and forced to do as they wanted.

You don't have to fight when you can just dishonor someone enough to make them commit seppuku and do your job for you, in or out of court, or blackmail them into doing what you want. They trade favors and make it easier for the rest of the party. Alot goes on in the Rokugani court and courtiers' decisions change how it works out. Both true and I think you're trivializing those two abilities.

It dosn't surprise me that it strikes you as hard to play, as it's really not your usual character type in the games that we've played thus far, however John's character is pretty much the old courtier+ school of the scorpion, and he seems to get around it easily enough.

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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That doesnt supprise me that the Scorpion one seems cheaty, but for Doji their techniques (atleast in 2nd ed the book I've been looking at) all seem pretty useless.

Also, the Bayushi Bushi in this book are just plain cheaters.
Declaring raises after you roll is the most overpowered thing I've ever seen, ontop of the rest of their cheatery.

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Jacob
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually quite well balanced against the rest of the clans ; ).

I would definately be a Bayushi Bushi hehe.

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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's so not balanced. Is that their level 5 technique? Cause it's a vastly better version of the Akodo level 5 technique.
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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The scorpion are the furthest thing from balanced that I've ever seen.

This is from the 2nd ed book so I'm sure with 3rd ed they got even worse, and Way of the Scorpion probably has all kinds of cheaty bs in it.

Rank 1: +rank k 0 for initiative (way over powered)

Rank 2: if someone misses you next round they have 1 for reflexes when determining the TN for you to hit them. (finally a reason to declare full defense)

Rank 3: Scorpion may make an attack as Kenjutsu/Agility roll vs opponents weapon skill x 5 to disarm, 2 raises = you disarm into your own hand. (so easy a child could do it)

Rank 4: 2 attacks (both can be used for the disarm but otherwise standard fair)

Rank 5: Raises after rolling.(WTF)

That is bull shit.

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Raptor
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're just jealous. Twisted Evil
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Jacob
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is =P.

Kakita would still school them in a duel.

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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As if he'd ever survive to challenge a cheaty bastard like that let alone survive to the duel.

The scorpions really just make me disgusted with the system, every one else plays by a set of rules and they just do what ever the hell they feel like. And don't give me any "the underhand of the emporer" bullshit because they just killed him.

I just think they were meant to steamroll every one else. If they weren't then that's what they do anyway.

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Jacob
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol yeah they'd school the crab in a contested strength test to take their weapon from them Rolling Eyes Come to think of it, since the Crab have mad stamina for poison resistance, can spend void to completely ignore damage, the scorpion would be pretty well schooled =P.

As you said you're going off old rules, and I still don't know where you're getting this "Most unbalanced thing I've ever seen" you're not putting it in the correct frame of refrence apparently, because if you look at the other school abilities, they're equally ridiculous.

The new school abilities are

1) +rank k 0 for initiative (Not really a big deal for most schools in 3E) and a +5 to TN if they're lower than you

2) Feints give you 2 free raises instead of one, and if someone attacks and misses you then you get your air ring in free raises on any attacks till the next round

3) Free raise for Called Shot, Disarm, or Knockdown, and opponent rolls one fewer die to keep hold of his weapon during contested Disarm rolls. Two additional raises on the disarm roll will end with you holding the weapon.

4) Extra attack and +10 TN for opponents lower than you replacing +5 bonus.

5) Declare raises after you roll and may decide if the attack is actually a Disarm, Feint, or Knockdown after the attack is rolled. Enemies make 2 additional raises to called shot, disarm, feint, or knockdown you.

All and all pretty reasonable compared to all the other techniques in 3E. I really don't see any problem with it.

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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was right in 3rd ed it's even worse. If you don't think that's over powered there are 2 explinations, either you don't have the experience of being a bushi in the game to let you understand how bad it is or you are biased.
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Jacob
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course there can only be two explainations, I'm ignorant or wrong. It couldn't be that I have a different opinion because I see more aspects of the game than you do Rolling Eyes . I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm just attempting to give you examples of why I believe the system is ok based on what's in other schools in 3E.

In 3rd ed, you get a chance to resist the disarm at a reasonable level so I would say it's more balanced. I still don't know what specifically you seem to have a problem with.

You're still just saying OMG THAT'S ALL UNFAIR and not giving any examples. Unfair compared to what? Getting 6+ free raises because of your initiative? Being able to use a different skill to perform kenjutsu? Inflicting up to +20 TN Penalties to hit you on a person you hit twice in a round? Having 8's-10's exploding for damage or a skill useage? 6's-10's doing the same thing? Giving a +10 TN bonus to EVERYONE WITHIN 100' of you? Completely ignoring damage rolls? Raising or lowering rings a number equal to or less than your school rank? Spending an experience point to return yourself to perfect health a number of times per day equal to your school rank? Having NO ONE be able to make a contested roll against you or take any hostile action towards you whatsoever unless you do it first?

The fact is that in L5R there are many extremely powerful techniques, spells, and abilities. I don't think the Bayushi Bushi school is any better or worse than others. It's just different.

I would also like to point out that while you're technically a bushi, your school specializes in Iajutsu dueling, not skirmishes. Mark's rank 5 technique was similar to the Bayushi's, only he succeeded in ALL BUGEI skills instead of just in combat, balancing the fact that he had to raise before hand. (Just for refrence that's Athletics, Battle, all weapon skills, defense, horsemanship, hunting, iajutsu, jiujutsu, and know the school).

That being said, both classes are horrible duelists and you would house both of them because that's what your school is meant to do. Rock in Iajutsu duels.

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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest thing is that they are going to go first with an insane ammount of initiative and then utterly dominate with 2 attacks, the first they will disarm a person with practically not effort and the second they will do the utmost possible damage every time, half the difficulty any of us have in combat is knowing out own limits so that we have to raise ahead of time, they simply dont have that, if they had to spend void I could see this being ok but as is they are unstoppable. +5k0 on any reasonable rank 5 character let alone a scorpion is gonna have them at 10k10 for initiative or higher at which point they will start keeping +5's ontop of the rest. I don't even know what feint does, I would guess it's like full defense but doesnt take a whole round.

What is the disarm roll? I seem to recall it being straight Strength versus Agility + weapon skill, stat versus stat+skill is a loss almost every time.
You yell at us all the time about needing to raise but this simply ignores that. When a die for us explodes 4 times in a row and we are amazed we don't benefit from it because the raise system in L5R is one of the hardest things to master about the system to become a good bushi, they just say fuck it and that makes them cheap. I don't expect to be able to beat every other school and I know Iajutsu is my thing but every one else plays by the raising system where you know your own limits or you fail, this just makes all that seem like some silly childs game we've been playing as the scorpions walk all over what ever the hell they want.

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