Multiple Actions
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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Multiple Actions Reply with quote

I think everyone knows that we need to have a discussion about this. We have some players who enjoy having several actions, and others who think it unbalances the game.

Most of this is my fault. I think it was a good idea to divide earnings into experience and inspiration in order to suppress specialization, but I left a hole in the system which allows people to gain combat advantage by spending XP on extra actions. It's perfectly within the rules that I've set forth, and I'm not pissed at anyone for doing so.

We have a few possible options for dealing with the situation:


1. Leave things as they are.


Nobody in the party has more than one extra action over the others, and everyone has at least two (from what I understand; correct me if I'm wrong). I don't see this as a huge difference, but this may perhaps be because I'm not a party member and hence am not subject to the spirit of competition that naturally arises. If we keep things the same, I doubt anyone will get to more than three actions any time soon, simply because getting above three is extremely expensive at the present time.

For example, if someone has 3s in both perception and speed for 3 NI, and three points of TI, it would cost, at very least, 480xp and 400 xp/ins to have the fourth action. Not inconcievable, but a fairly drastic cost.


2. A system of diminishing returns.

In this system, multiple actions will remain. However, I would apply something like -5 multiplicative to every action after the first. This would result in kept dice of 18, 17, 15 giving actions on 18, 12, 5. The obvious problem with this is that it would put some actions into the negative and cause some confusion and unnecessary math.

Otherwise, and perhaps additonally, this could apply to rolls made on those actions, making it harder to successfully hit a target with every subsequent action. Like the preceeding paragraph, but with strike rolls penalized. I would likely reduce the penalty to -3 or -4 multiplicative in this case.

This would make multiple actions less powerful, but it would also screw some people that have spent a lot of hard earned XP and IN to gain those actions. In addition, actions after the first would be nearly useless in fights against evenly matched opponents, as their chance of a successul evade roll would be much more likely. By the third or fourth action, your strikes would be based on die luck.


3. More dice, fewer actions.

This would change the current 2k1 (rounded down) system to a 3k1 system (rounded up), which would result in everyone having fewer actions and higher numbers.

For example, 1k1, 2k1, 3k1, 4k1, 5k2, 6k2, 7k2, 8k3, etc.

The problem with this is that everyone takes a hit, and most people would end up taking their actions in the high teens, turning the initiative countdown into a massive initial clusterfuck of severity rolls.


4. Fewer dice, same actions.

A comparatively minor fix, this would simply reduce the amount of dice rolled. Initiative numbers would be cut in half, and all rolled dice would be kept. Everyone would have the same number of actions, but the initiative countdown would be more spread out.


5. Remove multiple actions.

Simple and self-explanatory. Multiple actions go away, everyone gets a big refund for TI. My boss NPCs with multiple actions get a lot fucking harder, but then so do you, I suppose. Wink


6. Combat conversion.

This would convert combat to a system much like the one used for duels. I don't have any details on how it would work yet.

_________________________________________________________

That's about all I can think of that would be feasible to do. Discuss, and if you have any other ideas for fixing this, please post them.
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Dr. SexBot
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it. There's no imbalance in the system. Imbalance can only come from abuse. If someone abuses the system eventually they'll be at some sort of disadvantage somewhere. Everything should even out eventually.
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Silverhand
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it, I honestly don't feel that the system is imbalanced. I feel that TI solved the problem that we had with it and everything is fine now.
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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized I posted a wrong value for increasing to 4 actions. Raising TI from 3-4 would cost 800, not 400. That puts the minimum cost in that situation at 1080xp for the fourth action. For that, you could raise an affinity skill from 0-9 with three discipline.
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Jacob
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in favor of #5 but that's just me. I think combat's long/complicated enough with everyone only taking one action, but that's probably because I prefer the roleplaying aspect of the game.
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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's fine for now, the zepp-plane thing needs way more attention.
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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacob wrote:
I'm in favor of #5 but that's just me. I think combat's long/complicated enough with everyone only taking one action, but that's probably because I prefer the roleplaying aspect of the game.


Unless I crank damage or drop HP, or send a disproportiontely small amount of enemies at you, combat will take longer without multiple actions. Under the current system every round is like several single-action rounds condensed. At very least, it saves us initiative rerolls.
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Jacob
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now on to a further explaination of my earlier post.

I feel that combat, while slowly coming into shape, still takes up a large portion of the episode for basically it's own sake. As JW points out, it's difficult to see a pattern or goal that we're reaching other than honing our skills, and that's the problem that I think most of us are encountering both in and out of game. If the pirate-hunting was aimed more specifically at accomplishing an over-arching goal I think that the time spent on it might feel more worthwhile. I understand that the Black Zepps have been showing up of late, but that wasn't the origional intent of the mission, at least not as our characters saw it. This makes the amount of time we spend in combat, at least to me, seem wasted. It's very impersonal, we get into planes and shoot at other planes. That's why I think I'm going to start joining boarding parties instead. At least that combat can be rife with insults and witty quips, not to mention face-to-face confrontation that will allow my enemy to have a personality and a name instead of Byplane #X.

Multiple actions merely elongate this process and, honestly, I really don't *want* to go more than once a turn. It can minimize the number of enemies you have to throw at us since we can't wipe them out in droves, and allow them to perhaps become fewer but more difficult, and since there are less, they could perhaps have names and specific markings/ect? since there are less perhaps combat could become more personal. I understand the desire for massive, epic combats, but I like the L5R way of dealing with that, on the battle table, allowing skirimishes to be more personal. (Not reccomending this, just giving it as an example)

I understand that Alan's invested alot in the multiple action system and that's ok. I respect that! But I just feel that I've wasted XP that could have been used to flesh out my character to keep up in combat. Then again, that was my choice too and I'm not blaming anyone. But I just feel that combat shouldn't take precedence over the RPing, and when it's such a large part of each episode, I felt that I was missing out/not contributing as much as I should so I made sacrifices like increasing my speed, which honestly Gilliam had no real reason to do, instead of raising what I wanted to, mainly appearance, charisma and gaining skills like large business managment, marketing strategies, proverbs, not to mention all the history and cultural skills ect.

So I'm for reducing actions to one per turn, to expediate combat, and hopefully personalize enemies (which I understand is tough with the numbers we're currently facing). I figure you can refund the TI and people can use it to flesh out their characters more!

Just my 2€

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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why there's an impression that combat takes up a large part of the game. Lately, we've been averaging two non-combat sessions to every one with combat (that includes dueling as well).

I think you feel that combat is irrelevant because you missed background information from the previous episode that would have shown why you were on that mission, and that it was indeed connected to the black zeps.

I do agree that combat takes way too long, which is why I removed area damage. I know that more needs to be done to make combat faster (much faster), which is why combat will probably be converted over to a new system soon. I guess that's going to be the real solution to this.

I added Trained Init because people were complaining about not having a good way to get more actions, and now it's a problem. I really shouldn't have allowed you to use XP to buy it, since it can't be used on the ground. It violates the whole intent of separate XP and INS, and I think it was perhaps my biggest mistake of the game so far. I may very well go back and force refunds for people who spent XP on it, as much as I hate to do that.
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Silverhand
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Up to now, no one has really gotten to know Guin as a character, namely because not warming up to people and opening up is part of who she is. Mark and I are the only ones who know her true backstory and internal motivations. These motivations are the reasons for spending the xp on multiple actions, since they helped her to obtain her internal motivation. To be honest an xp refund will not allow me to flesh out the character along these motivations, because as of now there is nothing for me to spend this on to reach her driving goal. If multiple actions do get hit with a nerf bat, I'd want to be able to spend the refund on something to allow me to reach Guin's ultimate goals.
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Last edited by Silverhand on Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to see you expand upon some of the stuff that makes your character more human as well. I understand your moTivation (with a T damnit!) and I think it makes your character interesting (and certainly will later), but being so singularly focussed is kind of unnatural. You got into the gardening, the cooking, the acrobatics, etc, but you seem to have let them go in favor of piloting skill.

Also, the XP refund would not be because I have a problem with you having more actions. It would be due to the TI being used in the air. I created the split XP/INS system to maintain a balance and a separation between combat growth and personal growth, and XP shouldn't really be able to be used for combat growth. It was a mistake on my part.
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Silverhand
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well as of right now, I have been raising other things. Swimming, climbing, acrobatics, but only when I have been using those skills. I could have raised my acrobatics higher, but you said that you can only train higher than a 5 unless trained by someone. I've also been using it for skill discipline as well. But if you want that, just negate the xp spending from my last pm to you and I'll use it elsewhere.
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Marcus Brody
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taylor Durden wrote:
Well as of right now, I have been raising other things. Swimming, climbing, acrobatics, but only when I have been using those skills. I could have raised my acrobatics higher, but you said that you can only train higher than a 5 unless trained by someone. I've also been using it for skill discipline as well. But if you want that, just negate the xp spending from my last pm to you and I'll use it elsewhere.


No decisions have been made yet, though that's probably what I'll do. Once again, I really don't want to screw you over or force your concept to go in another direction, I'm just fixing a mistake that went against the spirit of the divided XP/INS.
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Bulkoth
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for every one getting that back but I think that we need a combination of #5 and #2 so that we can do multiple actions if we feel it is needed but they need to be extremely difficult.
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Dr. SexBot
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't think you should get rid of multiple actions...if you want to find another way of dealing with it, that would be ok, but I think it's important to have a way of representing someone who is faster than someone else. I don't think it makes combat any longer. I think there are some other elements that could shorten combat. The main thing that drags out episodes is people spending alot of time rolling for things that could easily be rped. Like practicing with swords and the like. I think if everyone focused more on rping and less on making every aspect of the game a competion of dice and bonuses, that we would have alot more time to rp and interact as characters.

Just a thought.

Vote no on the elimination of multiple actions. ((brought to you by the friends of Corneilius Deschain))

I'm Corneilius Deschain and I approve this message!
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