Chat Thread and Complaint Department
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Marcus Brody
The Dog


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 10587
Location: floating bumpercar

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Chat Thread and Complaint Department Reply with quote

This is the thread to discuss the game/system and whatever else. I'm going to make a new user and PM the name/password to everyone who plays Ciel. You can use it to post complaints about the game anonymously. Without the admin panel, I can't see who is using the account, nor would I even if I had it. If people are annoyed with the game, I want to know so I can make it better, so please commence bitching and discussion.

*If you have a complaint, please post it rather than PMing it to me, so that everyone can chime in.


Last edited by Marcus Brody on Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Hawkhouse



Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody. I'm the complaint account. If anything is bugging you about the game, please use me to post about it if you think Mark will get pissed off. I hear he gets more annoyed when people are pissed and don't say anything about it, so use me often!
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Hawkhouse



Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People should not feel that they have to develop their characters a certian way just to be able to compete with others. Develop your character the way you want and the way your character would logically develop. Don't feel pushed to have to twink out just so you are superior in combat.
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Marcus Brody
The Dog


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn straight. We just went, what, three episodes with no airplane combat?

I don't think it's at a bad point yet, but if it gets really bad I may have to seperate air and ground initiative.
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Marcus Brody
The Dog


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the flip side of this, don't feel like you have to "keep up" with someone who is rocking out in any particular area. It's ok to have someone be a slightly better pilot than everyone else, because (since you left the accademy) airplane combat has only accounted for about 20% of the game.
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Raptor
Sprints McGee


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 5565
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really the only time I get anoyed with not keeping up is multiple actions. It's way too easy to watch someone else with 2 or 3 to your one action do nearly everything while you sit and watch.
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Marcus Brody
The Dog


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 10587
Location: floating bumpercar

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing with multiple actions is, they're expensive. After you get up to three actions, increasing your initiative gets really costly, and while someone may have higher initiative, it may be worthless against a very agile pilot with a high dodge. If you're dumping all your points into initiative and not increasing anything else, it's basically like flailing around in the sky and shooting randomly.

I will admit that high-init characters do tend to mow through chumps very quickly, but chumps don't exactly shower you with inspiration.

And, again, the game has not really been combat-centered lately.
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Bulkoth
Whitest Forumer


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 7668
Location: State College

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't enjoy the multiple actions aspect at all even tho I'm the one who benefits the greatest from them. I think that it still needs some work, there is no way to stop people from just cramming in more actions and no while more actions may not help against uber pilots skill points wont do you a damn bit of good when that person with 3 shots is 3 times as likely to roll the 20 which is the only thing that will hit the bugger.
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Marcus Brody
The Dog


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 10587
Location: floating bumpercar

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there is no way to stop people from just cramming in more actions


Yeah there is. It's called prohibitively high exp/ins cost, which everyone is approaching by now. Min/maxing stats is NOT cheap.


Quote:
skill points wont do you a damn bit of good when that person with 3 shots is 3 times as likely to roll the 20 which is the only thing that will hit the bugger.


Yes they will. You won't have to crit, because you have the skill points to hit with less than a 20.



I'll admit an action is worth a LOT in Ciel, but they're also very very expensive compared to anything else:

Cost of getting speed and perception to 4 each - 1200 exp.
Cost of getting two extra init dice from trained init - 600 exp/ins.

So you're looking at 1800 exp to get three actions. I'm not sure I've even given that much out yet. Some players got little freebies or started with decent stats to help them along, but as of now getting any higher will be pretty crazily costly.

Getting to 4 actions (from three, assuming speed and per of 4, and 2 trained init):

Raising speed and perception from 4 to 6 - 1320 exp.
OR
Buying two more trained init dice - 1400 exp/ins.

Getting to 5 from 4:

Raising speed and perception from 4 to 8 - 1800 exp.
OR
Buying four more trained init dice - 2200 exp/ins.

That's getting insanely expensive, so I think it'll balance itself out. For that 2200 exp, you could raise a skill outside your affinity from 0 to nearly 13.
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Bulkoth
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Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that is an extra action in any situation, a skill at 13 will not be nearly as useful and versatile. The big issue is that to be more effective at combat I really have no ability to diversify my character in order to keep up with the enemies you throw at us. Combat may make up only 20% of the game but that 20% is a very VERY dangerous 20% and I really havent seen any oppurtunity for combat to be avoided at all. I don't feel rail roaded but to be honest I think combat IS too prevalent both in game and mechanics. and it is taking away from skills that I want to take because the skills have no actual benefit besides character depth. It's hard to justify taking more cooking or more hair styling when the next small story arc we play is bound to have a fight that could easily end Miko's or someone whom she cares about's life.

So Miko will continue to slowly move more and more toward single woman killing machine because the situations she keeps encountering force her to learn those things over things that would make her more human.

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Marcus Brody
The Dog


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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Location: floating bumpercar

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a bad point. What if initiative for air combat was all under Trained Init, and had to be bought with Inspiration? That would allow you to focus your Experience toward character development.

Now for the rebuttal phase:

Quote:
But that is an extra action in any situation, a skill at 13 will not be nearly as useful and versatile


Don't forget, that skill at 13 would earn you 2 hierarchal, so it would really give at least +15. Being able to longshot a skill could gain you a victory without a shot fired in many situations.


Quote:
it is taking away from skills that I want to take because the skills have no actual benefit besides character depth.


Tell that to Milliardo, who raked in cash and built a reputation with a high poker skill and empathy. Or Gilliam, who won tips and impressed students with his piano skill and dex (among other things). Or Gordon, who just barely managed to keep the crew from mutiny with charisma rolls - a higher charisma and/or and oration skill could have aroused the crew to vengeance and earned you a combat bonus for an inspired crew, not to mention the lasting loyalty of well trained men. Or Neil, who gave you all an invaluable edge in the dueling season with his expert plane repair and modification skills. Or Guin, with her feats of balance that allow you to steal other planes in midair.

Or, for that matter, yourself. There's a valuable secret in your hands, and your knowledge is the only thing that can decypher it. Your gardening, hairstyling, and drawing skills have drawn (heh) you closer to the rest of the team. Little things like that make the difference between a bunch of boring stoic badasses and a group of deep characters who think and act like a team.
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Silverhand
Baby Daddy


Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2354

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so yes, I was the first one to have 2 actions in the party. I do not want anyone to feel like I was twinking my character. Let me explain that the raising of this was completely character modivated and here is why. Guin saw pilots doing things she could only dream of and faster than possible. She knew that she would have to achieve this feat as well. She trained to be faster and more perceptive, did it help her in the air? At the academy, yes; against the tri-plane, no. What the raised skills did help me do was escape from the imprisonment of the pirates. If it were not for my high speed and perception, I do not think I would have been able to sense my captors from inside the hood that was on my head, nor out run them with said hood still on. My agility allowed me to get away to use my speed. So the traits that I raised to gain the stat bonus helped in many other situations. To me, more than 2 trained int is a waste of ins or xp. I'd much rather spend it on skills and stats that I can use in situations other than combat. I may soon have a third action, but you can bet it will be a long time, probably 2 years in game time or more before I would ever hit 4, there are way too many others things I need to improve upon, like dex, what good is jumping from plane to plane if you cant grab ahold?
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Raptor
Sprints McGee


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 5565
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would I be grabing anything, my grace is too high for that crap.*

I have no issue with your character having more than one action I just see it as a major point of "keeping up" when other can get 2-3 times as much done in the same time you get 1 roll. Plus, with a D20 and our current stats, it's far too easy for luck to matter more than skill, making more rolls of an even greater value.




*of course we are still using D20, so I can fail at any time no matter of my stats.

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Jacob
HATES FIREWORKS


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Plus, with a D20 and our current stats, it's far too easy for luck to matter more than skill, making more rolls of an even greater value.

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Silverhand
Baby Daddy


Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2354

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well when hanging on to a plane wing, I had to make dex checks, and that is not a good stat for me.

Yes as it is right now, its all on the chi of your dice. This will change soon though as raising other stats to give you a automatic success would be more appealing to me now. I want to still acomplish my goal, even if I roll a 4 and I want those 19 and 18's to be super actions.

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Reading - Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone

Watching - Green Arrow, The Flash, Agents of Shield

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